Comparisons between HR in Australia and the USA

[PatriciaS]

Admin Note: A discussion in the HR Careers forum went a little off topic and started discussing whether HR practices here in Australia lagged behind US practices. We have therefore moved some of those posts to this new thread so the discussion can continue.

PatriciaS,

It is difficult to know why your friend is not having any luck with his applications, but bear in mind that it is a tough market right now and your friend is probably competing with local senior HR execs who have been retrenched through no fault of their own. These are people who have local knowledge and many years of experience, local referees and local networks. It would be a pretty risky move right now to employ someone with very little local experience in preference to some very good local candidates.

Is he perhaps getting a bad reference from his previous Australian employer? (is his local experience recent?)

By the way, if he expresses the same views as you, that HR in Australia is way behind the USA, that won't help his case!

Moz

Moz,

The market is tough right now this is true without a doubt, but I also happen to know that I don't get too many candidates applying for jobs that have his qualifications or his experience also. His experience is current and his current employer values him as an employee but also realises that as far as skill and experience goes, he is above what he is doing at the moment.



Unfortunately Moz the truth may hurt and this is the case with HR practice in this country - it is behind what is being practised in the US and those that keep up with global/international HR know this is true. Although another thing is expressing this opinion to a potential employer - which of course he hasn't. This is one reason why HR professionals in this country would find it almost impossible to get an HR Manager's job in the US, experience or not, they want qualifications more than anything and an MBA in HR Management means more than 4 years experience in some mediocre smallish employer who includes Payroll as part of its HR department.

[Moz]

Patricia,

There is no widespread bias against Americans here in Australia. Clearly there must be something about your friend that is putting employers off, otherwise someone as good as you describe would have an appropriate job by now.

Rather than slagging off the Australian HR profession or blaming recruiters it might be more constructive to work out where the resistance is coming from and why.

Moz.

[PatriciaS]

Moz at no point did I suggest there was "widespread" bias.

I didn't slag HR in Australia, I just stated fact, it is behind the times period, I don't have a complex about that nor do I feel the need to defend it. But I don't sugarcoat things because they may be uncomfortable for some. I have worked in the US and I know the difference in corporate HR practices. People I would assume are welcome to share their experiences and viewpoints without being told they are slagging off HR.

I also work in the profession (obviously) and I have spoken to many employers who and there is no nice way to put this, do have a bias against foriegners, they bypass good CV's because of nationalities and some have audaciously said, I want young and I want Australian at the expense of other older and more qualified candidates.

Again, I wish the author of this thread the best of luck in finding a suitable position

[Moz]

Patricia,

Okay, I take back the "slag" HR comment - it's not a nice word. I'll replace it with "put down" Australian HR. My main issue here is that I feel you are generalising. You seem to criticise the Australian HR profession at every opportunity, so maybe in another thread you can explain why or how Australian HR is so far behind the US.

You are right about racial discrimination being alive and well in Australia, as it is in almost every country in the world in some shape or form. While not widespread, it is probably a bit more prevalent than most people would like to think. It is more common for people to discriminated against if English is not their first language and I am quite sure that lukohr is experiencing this.

It still doesn't explain why your US friend can't get an HR job here.

Moz

[PatriciaS]

Patricia,

Okay, I take back the "slag" HR comment - it's not a nice word. I'll replace it with "put down" Australian HR. My main issue here is that I feel you are generalising. You seem to criticise the Australian HR profession at every opportunity, so maybe in another thread you can explain why or how Australian HR is so far behind the US.

You are right about racial discrimination being alive and well in Australia, as it is in almost every country in the world in some shape or form. While not widespread, it is probably a bit more prevalent than most people would like to think. It is more common for people to discriminated against if English is not their first language and I am quite sure that lukohr is experiencing this.

It still doesn't explain why your US friend can't get an HR job here.

Moz

Moz,

That is the beauty of a forum like this, people can express their thoughts and viewpoints and not everyone has to agree or disagree. You can call it a put down if you like, but I make no apologies for it, perhaps the criticism might improve they way certain HR practices in this country.

I don't choose to excuse or perpetuate it by saying oh well thats just the way it is or even worse be in denial, I prefer to improve the way HR in the company I work for is perceived and practiced in accordance with best practices implemented with my assistance as a professional.

I would encourage people gain experience outside Australia, so they get a first hand view of different global practices and get a broader knowledge of the industry as a whole.

yw Lukohr, Here's hoping you get a great job soon so that you can come and tell us about it!

Cheers

[Midaz Coaching & Consulting]

Hi Patricia, have you considered that it may not be HR that is behind the times but corporate and business in general? The HR circle of influence is only part of a great machine and some people don't understand the value that HR can bring therefore, they are not looking for experience people that can add value, they want junior people to be transactional. This is a generalisation but certainly my experience in some organisations is that HR is a misunderstood profession and a great deal of time is spent "educating and massaging" the key stakeholders. I have had the misfortune and luxury of working in both reactive transactional organisations and proactive evolved organisations.

I believe a lot is being done to drive the industry forward and gain the professional recognition that should be afforded to HR. We have some of the best MBA programs in the world and people come here from the states (and indeed many other countries) to participate in our programs. As a group of professionals we need to work together on how we can combat both the lack of understanding and the parochial behaviours in some businesses.

A good discussion, Moz and Patricia, but I think we have have moved away from Lukour's topic so maybe it is time to start a new discussion thread with different focus. I'm sure that there are other members that would like to join in but they can't see it in this thread... Just an idea if you wish to keep the thoughts flowing.

Cheers
Mary-Leigh

Admin note: Thanks for your suggestion Mary-Leigh, this is the new thread

[michaelakassar]

Hi All,

I have to say that Mary-Leigh has a valid point here. Whilst I have not worked outside Australia, I'm not surprised to hear that corporate Australia may be behind the rest of the world, which is making life very difficult for less transactional HR people. Employees and customers are also suffering, as their needs are not adequately met. I too have had both the luxury of working in a more receptive organisation, and the misfortune of a more transactional environment. While it is important to ensure the transactional areas of HR are running smoothly, I do feel it's time for us to rattle the corporate cage a bit and see who falls off. Conservative people are not always untouchable. While it can be very difficult to bring about change, it can be well worth the effort if enough people get behind the cause. Conservative people are definately holding us back. The sooner they are pushed out of business, the better off we will be.



Cheers
Michaela

[Mark D]

In my previous role I worked for a large US-owned multinational FMCG company, and the global HR office in the US borrowed many of it's HR tools, processes and programs from the Australian HR team. Senior HR directors from the US, as well as US executives from non-HR parts of the business would routinely hold up the Australian HR team as leading the way globally in terms of expertise, services and innovation. From my point of view we weren't doing anything special, just practical, business focussed HR people adding value to the business.

On that basis I'd have to laugh at anyone who thinks Australian HR practices lag behing the US.

And, in terms of the racism argument, just look at how much time, effort and money US companies invest in "diversity" - many companies have an entire HR sub-branch devoted to managing diversity, which suggests US companies are paranoid about racism or it's a big problem, one or the other.

[PatriciaS]

Mark, I just want to make it clear that this isn’t a them vs us argument. We can agree to disagree on differing HR practices. I am an Australian HR practitioner, but I do want to clarify this isn’t also a response to you but to everyone who is an HR practitioner, I am Australian, and a proud one at that, as a professional we are all educated in techniques and theories not only from Australia, North America, Asia Pacific and Europe but the reason why I feel the HR function does not compare to other countries is due to the attitudes of senior management (CEO’s board of directors, etc) as they feel that the HR function doesn’t add to the bottom line.

We spend most of our time justifying why we exist. This can be seen due to the retention issues we have had in the past, those issues have temporarily diminished due to the global financial crisis but top performers retention has always been a major issue in my experience here. Senior Mangement doesn’t understand how HR adds value to the bottom line by contributing to retaining and attracting top performers, coaching, etc I can go on and on.

They do not undersand that we can reduce liability risk OH&S, lawsuits due to discrimination or bad PR etc

These are my experences.

As a practitioner in the US as you would understand the US has very strict laws and acts in place to “ensure” discrimination doesn’t take place. Companies can face severe penalites from the US Govt not to mention lawsuits against individuals as well as companies. This is a good example as to why specialist teams are created in companies in the US to ensure Senior Managers comply with the anti discrimination and diversity laws, because even Senior Managers know their line managers may not be “aware” or “follow” the law, so they are saving the company from any liability. I’m sure you’ve read the ads placed here “young dynamic team” - get my point?

Which comes down to my argument. Senior Management in North American companies understand the value of HR as it’s protection against a possible lawsuit. I wish they would incorporate this practice here, perhaps it would greatly minimize *cough* age discrimination etc.

Aussie HR practices only came up when an MBA student enquired as an a project asked him to use a global example – he chose Australia. The company I worked for never used Australian HR practices accept to enquire as to why payroll was a function in so many HR roles in Australia.

[Mark D]

Senior Mangement doesn’t understand how HR adds value to the bottom line by contributing to retaining and attracting top performers, coaching, etc I can go on and on.

They do not undersand that we can reduce liability risk OH&S, lawsuits due to discrimination or bad PR etc

These are my experences.

Sounds like you've had rotten luck in terms of the places you've chosen to work !

The best way to change those opinions and influence their understanding of the value of HR is to put runs on the board through quickly absorbing the key business drivers and adding measurable bottom line value through HR processes, systems and partnership. I'm seen far too many HR practitioners (globally, not just in Australia) who just don't get it, and continue to develop and implement HR processes that don't align with business strategies or are delivered because HR thinks it might be a good idea.

Be practical and strategic, display business acumen, and approach what you do in HR with an accountant's eye and you will soon find that senior managers will respect and value the business partnership you can offer.

[Moz]

Mark, I just want to make it clear that this isn’t a them vs us argument.

It came across that way.

...the reason why I feel the HR function does not compare to other countries is due to the attitudes of senior management (CEO’s board of directors, etc) as they feel that the HR function doesn’t add to the bottom line.

I think this is changing and has been for quite some time.

They do not undersand that we can reduce liability risk OH&S, lawsuits due to discrimination or bad PR etc

These are my experences.

With respect Patricia, I feel you are generalising too much. Just because you have worked in companies like that doesn't mean they are all like that. I'm sure too that in some of our larger companies you will find certain 'old school' senior management who think HR stands for Human Remains, but again the views of other senior managers in the same company may be the opposite.

I’m sure you’ve read the ads placed here “young dynamic team” - get my point?

Can you not describe a team as 'young and dynamic' in the US? (there is a difference between describing a team as 'young and dynamic' and advertising for 'young and dynamic' candidates).

The company I worked for never used Australian HR practices accept to enquire as to why payroll was a function in so many HR roles in Australia.

Again, this sounds like generalisation. What does "so many" mean?

What percentage of HR roles include payroll?

Did you see this post on that topic? http://www.hrbuzz.com.au/forum/showt...0046#post10046

[michaelakassar]

Hi All,

Well well well....what I lively debate!

I have to say there are some valid points from all sides here. I agree with Mark that there are some HR people who don't align HR with the business strategy and wonder why they are seen as not contributing as much as they could be. I also feel that some HR people may not have learned (on the job) how to apply strategic thinking and practice in their everyday work. Instead they may be thinking that strategy is only looked into every few years like a set of ideas, and things don't get put into practice. On the other hand I do feel that there are still some senior managers and CEO's etc, who do not see the value of HR other than merely protecting the organisation in a reactive, transactional manner, so that even if the HR person does try to get support to align HR with the business needs, he/she is met with criticism, and a 'I've had 20yrs experience in this industry therefore I know it all' attitude from senior managers.

Finally, we should try not to generalise too much. There are both good and bad companies out there, and perhaps we need to ask lots of questions about prospective employers should we have to attend job interviews. The answers and reactions from interviewers will tell a lot.

So let's try and choose the good companies if we can, or at least ensure that our role allows us to drive changes to make them good.



Cheers
Michaela

[PatriciaS]

Sounds like you've had rotten luck in terms of the places you've chosen to work !

The best way to change those opinions and influence their understanding of the value of HR is to put runs on the board through quickly absorbing the key business drivers and adding measurable bottom line value through HR processes, systems and partnership. I'm seen far too many HR practitioners (globally, not just in Australia) who just don't get it, and continue to develop and implement HR processes that don't align with business strategies or are delivered because HR thinks it might be a good idea.

Be practical and strategic, display business acumen, and approach what you do in HR with an accountant's eye and you will soon find that senior managers will respect and value the business partnership you can offer.

Dear Mark,

With all due respect to you as a professional, looking at HR with an accountant's eye is part of the problem! Also those that have been working in HR for over 20 years are, as they often have come from admin or finance backgrounds who just "fell" into HR.

[PatriciaS]

Hi All,

Well well well....what I lively debate!

I have to say there are some valid points from all sides here. I agree with Mark that there are some HR people who don't align HR with the business strategy and wonder why they are seen as not contributing as much as they could be. I also feel that some HR people may not have learned (on the job) how to apply strategic thinking and practice in their everyday work. Instead they may be thinking that strategy is only looked into every few years like a set of ideas, and things don't get put into practice. On the other hand I do feel that there are still some senior managers and CEO's etc, who do not see the value of HR other than merely protecting the organisation in a reactive, transactional manner, so that even if the HR person does try to get support to align HR with the business needs, he/she is met with criticism, and a 'I've had 20yrs experience in this industry therefore I know it all' attitude from senior managers.

Finally, we should try not to generalise too much. There are both good and bad companies out there, and perhaps we need to ask lots of questions about prospective employers should we have to attend job interviews. The answers and reactions from interviewers will tell a lot.

So let's try and choose the good companies if we can, or at least ensure that our role allows us to drive changes to make them good.



Cheers
Michaela

Very well said Michaela.

[Mark D]

Dear Mark,

With all due respect to you as a professional, looking at HR with an accountant's eye is part of the problem! Also those that have been working in HR for over 20 years are, as they often have come from admin or finance backgrounds who just "fell" into HR.

Bottom line, Patricia, is that the job of any of us is to assist the organisation we work for to make money (yes, even if we work for a non-profit or charitable association). If you work in HR in 2009 and don't understand the financial contribution HR can make to the particular business that employs you, then you've chosen the wrong career path, or you'll be doomed to be forever regarded by senior managers as the person who maintains the personnel files and arranges training courses.

The second part of your post is another sweeping generalisation, in common with most of your posts here.

I'm beginning to think your reason for joining this forum is to play old fashioned internet troll and see what type of reactions you get from others. There's really no other reason for the multiple number of posts in which you tell us how wonderful HR is in the US and how crappy it is in Australia.