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dbrooker
17-07-2014, 01:09 PM
I know that this has been discussed before (2009 I think) but we have had a discussion in the office regarding using personal leave for prearranged medical appointments. My view is that this aspect is not covered in the definition of personal leave. I attended a NSW Industrial Relations seminar yesterday and I raised this as an issue. The view of the presenter was that it really was up to the organisation to make that determination. My research to date doesn't make a clear distinction. My feeling if we imposed ''a no prearranged medical appointments policy" it would simply drive those requests underground. Earlier comments suggested that the organisation encouraged staff to make those appointments outside of work hours to preserve the PL for 'real emergencies'. I was wondering how others viewed this, and did they have policies in place along the lines above.

Moz
17-07-2014, 01:44 PM
I would have a moral problem with a policy which stipulated "no prearranged medical appointments" because there are numerous medical procedures which are difficult, if not impossible to get done outside normal business hours, but they are not necessarily "elective" in nature.

For example, an employee had previously broken his leg quite badly which required initial surgery, then more surgery 18 months down the track, to remove the metalwork! There were also two or three specialists visits in between, all of which were pre arranged.

I treated the second lot of surgery (two days) as PL. For the specialists visits which took 1-2 hours each, we simply agreed the employee would make up the time on other days during the following week, or later that day

Dentist visits and other non urgent doctors appointments are dealt with the same way. If someone had to have some sort of minor procedure and only needed half a day, then they could take half a day of PL.

Is there anything explicit in the FWA about this?

dbrooker
17-07-2014, 03:13 PM
I would have a moral problem with a policy which stipulated "no prearranged medical appointments" because there are numerous medical procedures which are difficult, if not impossible to get done outside normal business hours, but they are not necessarily "elective" in nature.

For example, an employee had previously broken his leg quite badly which required initial surgery, then more surgery 18 months down the track, to remove the metalwork! There were also two or three specialists visits in between, all of which were pre arranged.

I treated the second lot of surgery (two days) as PL. For the specialists visits which took 1-2 hours each, we simply agreed the employee would make up the time on other days during the following week, or later that day

Dentist visits and other non urgent doctors appointments are dealt with the same way. If someone had to have some sort of minor procedure and only needed half a day, then they could take half a day of PL.

Is there anything explicit in the FWA about this?

Fairwork are fairly neutral on this as well here is the quote from their Information Sheet "An employee may take paid personal/carer’s leave:

if they are unfit for work because of their own personal illness or injury (including pregnancy-related illness), or

to provide care or support to a member of their immediate family or household, because of a personal illness, injury or unexpected emergency affecting the member. A member of the employee’s immediate family means a spouse, de facto partner, child, parent, grandparent, grandchild or sibling of an employee; or a child, parent, grandparent, grandchild or sibling of the employee’s spouse or de facto partner.
However, if the period during which an employee takes paid personal/carer’s leave includes a day or part-day that is a public holiday, the employee is not on paid'

Medical appointments are not mentioned here at all.

Tiger
17-07-2014, 05:53 PM
Interesting how this one has gone around. Several years and jobs later, I now take approach that if you are fit to go to a medical appt, you are fit to work and thus PC/L could not be used for those appts. FW Act is clear on the "fit for work" angle. But, and Moz alludes to this, I doubt there are many bosses out there who would quibble - the appt is for a medical reason after all. Still, for the employer who was going to stick to the letter... so to speak, they would be within FWA guideline if refusing to allow PC/L to be used for the average medical/dental appt. Again, as Moz mentions, let them have their doctor/dental check ups and have them make up the time - which can be minimal if, like me, one schedules these at either the very start or last appt of the day to minimise time spent going to and fro from work to doctor.
As for the elective surgery angle, again, question should be asked, will that elective surgery mean they are unfit for work? I think so as they'll be in a hospital! So from where I sit, if an employee has elective surgery then they are unfit for work and it is thus PC/L (provided they've got it to cover the leave).
Tiger

dbrooker
18-07-2014, 09:09 AM
Interesting how this one has gone around. Several years and jobs later, I now take approach that if you are fit to go to a medical appt, you are fit to work and thus PC/L could not be used for those appts. FW Act is clear on the "fit for work" angle. But, and Moz alludes to this, I doubt there are many bosses out there who would quibble - the appt is for a medical reason after all. Still, for the employer who was going to stick to the letter... so to speak, they would be within FWA guideline if refusing to allow PC/L to be used for the average medical/dental appt. Again, as Moz mentions, let them have their doctor/dental check ups and have them make up the time - which can be minimal if, like me, one schedules these at either the very start or last appt of the day to minimise time spent going to and fro from work to doctor.
As for the elective surgery angle, again, question should be asked, will that elective surgery mean they are unfit for work? I think so as they'll be in a hospital! So from where I sit, if an employee has elective surgery then they are unfit for work and it is thus PC/L (provided they've got it to cover the leave).
Tiger

Maybe the answer is a policy which says along the lines: Wherever possible medical and dental appointments should be made outside of work hours, but PL may be used if this is not practicable, reminding staff that PL should be used for illness and the need to care for members of your family that are unwell and that you only have 10 days, but perhaps not as bluntly as that.

Moz
18-07-2014, 12:29 PM
The Fair Work Act is a bit of a joke in this area.

Basically it saying that although you are fit for work you can take personal leave to look after a sick relative, with no requirement for verification.

On the other hand, you can personally need to attend a medical appointment, which could be critically important, and that's not allowed because it doesn't render you unfit for work.

Surely this is not what they intended?

bullswool
01-08-2014, 02:48 PM
The alternative as an employee? Just don't tell the employer you have an Dr. appointment. Go to the Dr. appointment, get a med. cert. and use PL. Silly option...

Let them tell you in advance. Let them give you an opportunity to plan for the absence. I think a great suggestion by dbrooker with
a policy which says along the lines: Wherever possible medical and dental appointments should be made outside of work hours