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Determined
04-03-2013, 09:02 PM
Have had 10 great years as HR Generalist, Change Projects and Business Unit People Leader. Then resigned from my last role as I had a baby and was relocating to Melbourne. I'm not even getting interviews as I attempt to return to the workforce. Have been advised by an agency that my resume is good, however businesses ask them for RECENT experience so it would be unlikely that agencies would shortlist me. I was shocked! Not sure if there is discrimination out there regarding me having a young child .... I state that I had a baby as my reason for leaving my last role - I also try and let it be known that there is full time daddy day care and that I rarely take any days off work, just in case that is an issue.

Am mainly applying for consultant level roles, have great referees and a passion for Performance Development, Relationship Management, Leadership programs and Change.

Any suggestions?

Qld IR Consultant
05-03-2013, 01:50 PM
Firstly my advice is not rely to much on agency's. They are flooded and the chance of you getting anywhere with them is slim. I advocate strongly for approaching the employers directly. Make a list of 20 or so companies you would truly want to work for. Make a list of what value you could add to the business with your skills and knowledge.......then put on a comfortable pair of shoes and hit the pavement.

Your family situation should not come into play at all.....and if it does give me a call.....been a while since I've done a good adverse action claim.....

Rec AC
05-03-2013, 03:41 PM
Sounds like a lot of pain...have you thought about going out on your own and leveraging off your HR expertise.

Determined
05-03-2013, 05:01 PM
Thank you QLD IR consultant, I think you are right - and for anyone reading this who is in a similar boat, many years ago I researched companies, rang to find out names and title, sent out 22 letters and got 6 interviews - and was successful for one of those. I had very little experience then and it worked. This time I thought with all the experience I could easily find something.

And thank you Rec AC.....yes I have thought about going out on my own and if this next lot of letters doesn't work, it could be earlier than I think!

Moz
05-03-2013, 08:24 PM
This time I thought with all the experience I could easily find something.

More experience usually equates to more seniority and unfortunately the more senior you become the fewer the number of opportunities.

There are many unemployed HR people out there so there's a lot of competition for the positions that come up.

Casualisation of the workforce has increased markedly in recent years, as it usually does in uncertain economic conditions and our employment legislation has also been a contributing factor.

A significant percentage of HR positions are contract nowadays, and it's common to see "contract to perm" positions. This is basically employers taking advantage of the market conditions. Even if it's not advertised as "contract to perm" that is what often happens.

Bear in mind most contract positions are advertised through agencies, so I certainly wouldn't shun recruiters because one individual thought I was out of the market for too long. Try some more.

How long is it since you left your last position?

Determined
05-03-2013, 09:08 PM
How long is it since you left your last position?[/QUOTE]

Left last position April 2011.

Moz
05-03-2013, 10:07 PM
How long is it since you left your last position?

Left last position April 2011.

Less than two years. That really shouldn't be an issue.

Qld IR Consultant
06-03-2013, 08:07 AM
The hardest part is getting past the agency to get an interview. They make the decision as to whether or not you fit the brief from the client. Which in some cases the client isn't 100% sure of who they want either....

easiest way around the agency is take them out of the equation and do it yourself....A lot of work but it should pay off.....

Good Luck!

Moz
06-03-2013, 01:01 PM
The hardest part is getting past the agency to get an interview.

Really? So all you need to do is get past the agency and you get the job?

That's your advice?

In reality the agency will put forward a number candidates whom they believe fit the client's brief, and only one of them will get the job.


They make the decision as to whether or not you fit the brief from the client.

Of course they do, that's their job!

If a recruiter sends me every candidate who thought they were right for the job I wouldn't be dealing with the recruiter for very long.


Which in some cases the client isn't 100% sure of who they want either....

That happens for sure - we don't live in a perfect world. A good recruiter will ask questions to ascertain exactly what the client want, but some times it only comes out of the process, when the client starts interviewing candidates and gives the recruiter feedback.

Bear in mind also, that some hiring managers use recruiters to do their discrimination for them.

Ageism is common nowadays. I have also experienced blatant racial discrimination (thankfully not so common). But there are more subtle things that the employer would not want to advertise, like trying to achieve gender balance in a department or team. Or the opposite, when a manager only hires candidates of a particular gender.

There is even sub-conscious discrimination, like managers (and recruiters) who never interview candidates who have a name that is hard to pronounce.

There will of course be some managers out there who don't want to hire someone with a young child. I've even heard grumblings from a manager who didn't want to hire anyone who might become pregnant!

There is all manner of discrimination going on, but don't expect the recruiter to tell you because they're usually doing someone elses bidding.

The upshot of this is that there are often decision factors that are not advertised or mentioned by the recruiter, sometimes because it would be illegal to do so.


easiest way around the agency is take them out of the equation and do it yourself

And kiss goodbye to a large percentage of temp/contract jobs and even some permanent jobs!

There are many organisations who may do their permanent staff recruitment themselves, but employ all of their temp/contract staff through agencies. There are also some who also do the bulk of their perm recruitment through agencies, for a variety of reasons.

There are undoubtedly some situations where the recruiter gets it wrong, and rejects someone whom the client would hire, but it's not as common an occurrence as some would suggest.

DETERMINED, as it is you who is looking for a job, and not Qld IR Consultant, my advice would be to keep talking to recruiters while you continue to make direct applications. You should soon be able to work out which recruiters know what they are talking about and who are genuinely willing to consider you for positions where they feel you could be a good fit.

I can guarantee you that not all HR recruiters will feel that less than two years out of the market is too long!

Qld IR Consultant
06-03-2013, 01:30 PM
Lets agree to disagree Moz. I researched for 2 years on HR and IR recruitment in this country, hence the reason why I now run my own. I'm not saying that they are all like that, but when you have a couple of bad experiences it black marks it for everyone. The bulk of agencies I have dealt with fail in one critical aspect and thats treating the candidates as clients as well as the employers themselves.

My advice as requested would be simple....try the agencies first, if that fails then do it yourself and see the difference. Recruitment agencies aren't the be all and end all of finding a job and people shouldn't be lulled into thinking that they are.

NicoleAnita
06-03-2013, 04:10 PM
Determined

I agree with Qld IR Consultant regarding recruitment agencies. I wouldn't rule them out completely but they will 'cull' you based on your time away from the workforce if the client does not want it. They are not the be all and end all of finding you are job.

My second issue is - what do you put on your CV? I hope it's maternity leave or carers leave and no mention of your child or childcare arrangements. That's nobody's business and I wouldn't be offering it as a topic of conversation either. That same question is NEVER asked of a man which I have a real issue with. I took time out of the workforce for 12 months due to a family issue and I put carers leave on my CV. I had no problem getting interviews or jobs. If they asked I told them the basics. Not the whole story. None of their business. The company I currently work for the MD in the interview asked me about my husband!!! I literally told him 'not that I have to tell you but because your interested he's a Senior Counsel'! Then i went about giving him some serious interview techniques when i started. Perhaps that's why I got the job but nevertheless they are the questions you shouldn't answer nor have to justify you have everything under control on the home front.

You are a HR Professional so weeding out the agencies or companies that ask these kinds of questions should be a breeze and as mentioned a possible adverse action claim!

Remember - those same agencies that discriminate or treat you badly are the same ones who will come running when you are the HR Manager in a company!!

Good luck.

Determined
10-03-2013, 08:08 PM
Hi NicoleAnita

Thanks for the feedback. I just put 'had a baby' as reason for leaving. But when I am speaking with acquaintances about possibilities (note that I write 'acquaintances' as I never get interviews!), I sometimes let it be known that there is daddy day care. I know it's none of their business, nor an employer's business, however, I also know that sometimes it can be an issue. Some are once bitten twice shy.

NicoleAnita
11-03-2013, 07:47 AM
Just one suggestion - I would change it to Maternity Leave. Putting 'had a baby' already opens up the questions like 'how old is your child etc' in interviews. That would probably be their opening line therefore leading into your next issue with day care. All I would say is 'I am now in a position to resume full time work'. End of story. That should be sufficient information.

Determined
11-03-2013, 08:16 AM
Thanks and yes I will do that....although I never took mat leave, I resigned as I was leaving the area anyway.

RFitzlion
18-03-2013, 08:18 PM
A significant percentage of HR positions are contract nowadays, and it's common to see "contract to perm" positions. This is basically employers taking advantage of the market conditions. Even if it's not advertised as "contract to perm" that is what often happens.



So this is legal Moz? Not a sham contract?

RFitzlion
18-03-2013, 08:50 PM
Is it not sad/concerning that we are still having these conversations in 2013 where a person seeking to get back into the workforce is clearly being discriminated, whether its by the prospective employer or by the agency?

This is not just happening to women trying to re-enter the workforce but also older workers (and in some cases 'not so old' workers with significant experience) trying to win a position that an employer or agency determine they do not have the 'job fit' (what a cop out!!).

Would organisations with competent HR departments allow this type of discrimination to occur? The ordinary ones would and do!

I am not anti agency but strongly believe (and know of) many agencies who are unprofessional and treat applicants like fodder. These agencies need to be weeded out and left to wither. The good agencies who work closely with companies, who truly understand the brief and treat their applicants with respect are the ones that deserve to remain.

"Determined"....my advice is to tailor your CV and alter it to suit what is being asked.....if it means to play them at their own game then deceive! :) You will be employed.

NicoleAnita
18-03-2013, 09:01 PM
RFitzlion - no it's not legal if its not advertised as a contract to perm opportunity. I think you are talking about the minimum employment period of 6 months that one must complete before accessing unfair dismissal laws. This does nt include unlawful dismissal as that is something different.

A contract to perm position must be advertised as such and not sprung upon you when you accept the role. They might say there is a probationary period ( which is still common regardless of the MEP) in the written contract of employment. I think what a lot of companies do is say contract to perm to test you out so to speak.

Also you have to remember there is a difference between a true fixed term contract with has a start date and end date and a contract to perm arrangement and a sham contract. There are a lot of complexities that differentiates them.

Ensure you get all the information before accepting any offer.

NicoleAnita
18-03-2013, 09:03 PM
Is it not sad/concerning that we are still having these conversations in 2013 where a person seeking to get back into the workforce is clearly being discriminated, whether its by the prospective employer or by the agency?

This is not just happening to women trying to re-enter the workforce but also older workers (and in some cases 'not so old' workers with significant experience) trying to win a position that an employer or agency determine they do not have the 'job fit' (what a cop out!!).

Would organisations with competent HR departments allow this type of discrimination to occur? The ordinary ones would and do!

I am not anti agency but strongly believe (and know of) many agencies who are unprofessional and treat applicants like fodder. These agencies need to be weeded out and left to wither. The good agencies who work closely with companies, who truly understand the brief and treat their applicants with respect are the ones that deserve to remain.

"Determined"....my advice is to tailor your CV and alter it to suit what is being asked.....if it means to play them at their own game then deceive! :) You will be employed.

I also agree with your above statement.

RFitzlion
18-03-2013, 09:27 PM
A contract to perm position must be advertised as such and not sprung upon you when you accept the role. They might say there is a probationary period ( which is still common regardless of the MEP) in the written contract of employment. I think what a lot of companies do is say contract to perm to test you out so to speak.

I would hope good organisations with competent HR departments would not advertise these "contract to perm" positions, if the position is in fact an ongoing position that simply needs a well managed probation period.

The term "contract to perm" is just terrible, they may as well say "try before you buy".

Moz
19-03-2013, 04:38 AM
So this is legal Moz? Not a sham contract?

Well if it isn't legal a lot of employers are breaking the law. However, as far as I am aware there is nothing illegal about "temp to perm" contracts. If you want to know for sure, ask a lawyer.

"try before you buy"? of course it is, they are not hiding the fact.

I agree that it is deceptive to advertise a job as perm then offer it as a contract with a view to permanency, but unfortunately when the candidate is unemployed, all of the power rests with the employer and many will take advantage of the situation.

NicoleAnita
19-03-2013, 07:43 AM
You would be surprised at what some employers will do (intentionally) and try to get away with it. Unfortunately Discrimination is still very prevalent in 2013 as it was 20 odd years ago and I have witnessed this first hand.

Contract positions are just that - start date and end date. Even a temp who is paid from an agency as a 'temporary employee' will continue to be paid from the agency yet still treated as if they are a permanent employee, which is why now casuals have the option of requesting permanent work after a period of time because a lot of companies were using this as an excuse to fill their workforce and have the options of terminating someone at a whim. There are also legitimate reasons for it - the company may be in a transition phase and not yet know whether they actually need the position but as long as it is advertised as such that's not illegal. It's when it starts to become clouded between the agency and the company or if the company is paying them from their own payroll and drags out usually longer than 6 months then I would question the situation.

This is why there are now certain criteria to be met for a true contractor and not a sham contract. As for a temp to perm position these are legal ONLY if they are made clear at the start. For example it might be a maternity leave position but the majority are employers wanting to use that 6 month MEP to see if the person works out. There are some upsides to this as some people prefer to work like this as it gives them more flexibility but the fact is if a company has someone on a contract to perm position and that employee is performing really well they will eventually look to find something more stable and permanent. After all, who wants to keep working as a contractor (if you want a permanent job) for more than 6 months without accruing all your entitlements etc.