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Blonde_Bunny
15-10-2012, 06:54 PM
I am a HR professional and have been with my new employer for 2 months. Prior to signing the contract I asked the recruiter if it was possible to work 8-4/4:30, reason being is I live further out than the rest of the team so an earlier time works better for the train (less crowded) I am an early bird plus I tend to exercise after work, which forms part of my mental health plan (I suffer from depression). The recruiter asked my now manager who said this would be fine as it means they could have cover 7:45/8 to 6, the answer was a big factor in me taking the role. However since I arrived it seems different, like today I arrived at 7:45 but stayed until 4:45 (EBA states 7.6 hours per day), when I told her I was leaving she looked at the clock and said "leaving already?"
I am not sure what to do, any advice? A peer told me " You don't have kids so have no right to flexible working"

Moz
15-10-2012, 09:13 PM
A peer told me " You don't have kids so have no right to flexible working"

Unfortunately your peer is correct, see number 2 of the 10 NES provisions says;
"Requests for flexible working arrangements - allows parents or carers of a child under school age or of a child under 18 with a disability, to request a change in working arrangements to assist with the child’s care."

I'm guessing this agreement about you starting early and finishing early isn't in your employment contract?

Also, are you working on a contract basis or are you a permanent employee?

Either way, my advice is that you need to deal with this ASAP - you don't want to let something like this fester.

Tomorrow, the earlier the better, I would ask your manager if you could have a brief private chat and let her know that you had been told by the recruiter and that this was the basis on which you accepted the position. If you are in before your manager it might even be best to let her as soon as she comes in that you would like to have a quick chat and ask her when is convenient.

It's possible your manager might say she was joking. If that's the case I think you need to let her know that you find such comments make you feel uncomfortable.

NicoleAnita
16-10-2012, 05:58 AM
Moz is correct (re flexible working hours) - however if you have agreed to the flexible working hours - was that with the recruiter of an agency? If so, first thing I would have done was make sure it was in my employment contract - if it is then there is your argument. If not, you need to have that chat ASAP as the longer you leave it the worse it will get, especially if you suffer depression. Also, there is something in the FWA that refers to "implied terms" in a contract of employment - that could be your avenue if this is not in writing - however only being there for 2 months, it would be difficult to pursue. My advice - have a serious talk with your manager ASAP otherwise I can guarantee two things:

1. You will end up hating it there and;
2. Don't be surprised if the recruiter suddenly rings you and says "sorrry it's not working out for them" and you find yourself out of a job!

Another reason why I don't like dealing with recruiters - they always only seem to do half the job!!

Good Luck.

Qld IR Consultant
16-10-2012, 04:50 PM
Another reason why I don't like dealing with recruiters - they always only seem to do half the job!!



Summed up one part of the issue well.

In terms of you being able to request flexible work arrangements I would think that you may have been better served waiting for a bit longer than 2 months before asking. But that aside if you are getting a cold response or subject to a pseudo bundy clock by your manager than perhaps pre-empting them and looking for another role would be the best idea. And if you do make sure you get the flexibility you want straight up before you sign on the line.

NicoleAnita
16-10-2012, 11:36 PM
Totally agree. What is wrong with us (HR) that we don't understand our own rights let alone give it out to others? Please people let's understand our role so we can understand our purpose. Lets stop being the tree hugging majority and be the tough descision making minority we aspire to!!! Lets be taken serious for once. Get tough people!! It's OUR JOB!!!!

Tiger
17-10-2012, 09:26 AM
I'm bringing a different perspective to this issue. From where I sit, as a manager with a team in an organization which runs 24/7, having the flexibility - albeit unwritten - to cover the early and later hours is fantastic. In particular, the early hours for it is generally between 6:30 and 7am many employees come to HR with questions - before they start their shift.

Plus in this day and age with traffic clogged Sydney and emphasis on work-life balance, I don't understand why your Manager is being so short sighted on this. Perhaps he/she is concerned about the perception of others?

If you listen to/read meadia, we are being inundated with the traffic chaos subject with politicians and traffic planners asking ubsinesses to do just this - vary the start and finishing times of their employees to help ease congestion and it is not the first time in the past decade this topic has been broached.

Personally, I am with you, an early riser. But I have also suffered the ignorance of others with comments as I walk out the door at 4:30pm (usually after a 9 hour day) but a direct look in the eye and a questoin about where they were early that morning shuts them up.

You should check your letter of offer/employment contract - what did the hours of work clause state? Was it a general 'between such and such hours' or was it prescriptive eg 9-5. If the latter, and you accepted the job without raising this & agreeing on a variation, then you accepted the job offer with those work hours.

Other questions like the type of organization (are you in an office job where 9-5 is pretty much standard, or are you working in a blue collar environment where early starts are the norm for a lot of jobs?). Depending on your industry type, you might approach your boss with the pitch that by being there early, you are extending coverage for the team which sends a good message about HR's commitment.

If an inhereent part of your job is to cover the telephones and leaving early means this becomes an issue, think about who else could cover them.

You mention the recruiter, but more imporantly, did you actually ask this question at your interview with the company interviewers? If not, then you have learned a valuable lesson! If so, then you could mention this when you speak to your Manager to sort this out (next time, get something in writing). If you didn't think to ask about this at your company interview, you might mention you did raise it with the recruiter (who has 'inadvertently' apparently, failed to pass it on to your boss!)

I think we are all getting far too prescriptive and have become too constrained by what is written in industrial guidelines. It's like FWA is the final arbiter in all things - what happened to common sense and thinking outside the square? Flexible work is good for things like part time work, working from home, additional M/L, etc. But your boss's reaction to a simple request to vary start and finish times is very old fashioned.

So, in your shoes, I would check to see if there are others in your company who start early and you can cite them; who seems to have difficulting getting in on time? make a list of what you want to say with constructive suggestions and ask for meeting with you manager. Sell your pitch professionally, without emotion and point out the advantages to the department and dept's customers in allowing you to start earlier - not least is being at work on time, unlikely if you have to compete with the masses working 9-5. Also, it is likely you're at your most productive early so work output quality is improved.

The reality these days is that an increasing number of organizations have a span of hours in which individual's are expected to work - I've seen these can vary from 7 - 6 or 8 - 7 depending on the business.

Be mindful however that there will be times when you can't leave when you may want to due to work peaks/project deadlines etc. If your boss is aware that you are prepared to compromise, that will make her decision easier. If you get the agreement you want, it would be a good idea for your boss to communicate the hours to be covered by her dept - all people are aware.

Good luck

NicoleAnita
17-10-2012, 09:56 AM
I'm bringing a different perspective to this issue. From where I sit, as a manager with a team in an organization which runs 24/7, having the flexibility - albeit unwritten - to cover the early and later hours is fantastic. In particular, the early hours for it is generally between 6:30 and 7am many employees come to HR with questions - before they start their shift.

Plus in this day and age with traffic clogged Sydney and emphasis on work-life balance, I don't understand why your Manager is being so short sighted on this. Perhaps he/she is concerned about the perception of others?

If you listen to/read meadia, we are being inundated with the traffic chaos subject with politicians and traffic planners asking ubsinesses to do just this - vary the start and finishing times of their employees to help ease congestion and it is not the first time in the past decade this topic has been broached.

Personally, I am with you, an early riser. But I have also suffered the ignorance of others with comments as I walk out the door at 4:30pm (usually after a 9 hour day) but a direct look in the eye and a questoin about where they were early that morning shuts them up.

You should check your letter of offer/employment contract - what did the hours of work clause state? Was it a general 'between such and such hours' or was it prescriptive eg 9-5. If the latter, and you accepted the job without raising this & agreeing on a variation, then you accepted the job offer with those work hours.

Other questions like the type of organization (are you in an office job where 9-5 is pretty much standard, or are you working in a blue collar environment where early starts are the norm for a lot of jobs?). Depending on your industry type, you might approach your boss with the pitch that by being there early, you are extending coverage for the team which sends a good message about HR's commitment.

If an inhereent part of your job is to cover the telephones and leaving early means this becomes an issue, think about who else could cover them.

You mention the recruiter, but more imporantly, did you actually ask this question at your interview with the company interviewers? If not, then you have learned a valuable lesson! If so, then you could mention this when you speak to your Manager to sort this out (next time, get something in writing). If you didn't think to ask about this at your company interview, you might mention you did raise it with the recruiter (who has 'inadvertently' apparently, failed to pass it on to your boss!)

I think we are all getting far too prescriptive and have become too constrained by what is written in industrial guidelines. It's like FWA is the final arbiter in all things - what happened to common sense and thinking outside the square? Flexible work is good for things like part time work, working from home, additional M/L, etc. But your boss's reaction to a simple request to vary start and finish times is very old fashioned.

So, in your shoes, I would check to see if there are others in your company who start early and you can cite them; who seems to have difficulting getting in on time? make a list of what you want to say with constructive suggestions and ask for meeting with you manager. Sell your pitch professionally, without emotion and point out the advantages to the department and dept's customers in allowing you to start earlier - not least is being at work on time, unlikely if you have to compete with the masses working 9-5. Also, it is likely you're at your most productive early so work output quality is improved.

The reality these days is that an increasing number of organizations have a span of hours in which individual's are expected to work - I've seen these can vary from 7 - 6 or 8 - 7 depending on the business.

Be mindful however that there will be times when you can't leave when you may want to due to work peaks/project deadlines etc. If your boss is aware that you are prepared to compromise, that will make her decision easier. If you get the agreement you want, it would be a good idea for your boss to communicate the hours to be covered by her dept - all people are aware.

Good luck


I do not disagree with you - however being 'too prescriptive' is unfortunately a sign of the times in the workplace these days - I am not sure whether you have had the pleasure of appearing before FWA but I can assure you, they are not interested in who said what - it is what the evidence is ie anything in writing, anything implied etc. Many companies end up here for that exact reason - the perception of others - 'why does she get to leave early etc' and the failure of many Managers who just plain refuse to either deal with it directly or follow proper procedure. As a HR Manager I get a lot of questions like this - hours, breaks, leaving early etc that a Manager "apparently" agreed to in an interview and then cries ignorant when the subject is brought up!

Simple answer - is it in writing? - if not, discuss directly with your manager not the recruiter - they would have bailed long ago or again 'not remember the conversation'. If it can't work with the hours you either leave or put up with it until you find a job that suits your requirements. But I will stress never accept an offer unless EVERYTHING is covered and you are happy with its contents.

Moz
17-10-2012, 11:11 AM
If you didn't think to ask about this at your company interview, you might mention you did raise it with the recruiter (who has 'inadvertently' apparently, failed to pass it on to your boss!)

Hang on a minute! The recruiter told Blonde_Bunny what her bosses response was to the request for flexible hours, and it was quite specific. Yet you all seem to be assuming that the recruiter was lying. But what would be the point of making something like that up? If the placement doesn't work out the recruiter will have to find a replacement. I can tell you no recruiter wants to do that.

It doesn't seem to have occurred to any of you that the recruiter was telling the truth, and it could be Blonde_Bunny's boss who is simply trying to use peer pressure to squeeze more hours out of her. This is a very common situation in office environments, where it becomes an expectation that everyone will put in an hour of two of free overtime. Everyone is scared to be the first one to leave.

This is an insidious problem which impacts our quality of life and sees Australians work more than two billion hours of unpaid overtime every year, according to The Australia Institute.

Incidentally, given that Blonde_Bunny is a "HR Professional", presumably her boss is also in HR (HR Manager?), so she should know better than try to embarrass her staff with snide comments about leaving early.

NicoleAnita
17-10-2012, 03:47 PM
Moz. I think we all know what should have been done but wasn't. It's as simple as talking about it. Sort it out or move on. Work life balance and millions of unpaid overtime? I can tell you in all places I have worked the ONLY people doing this were the managers who were paid a bomb for doing so. Everyone else was out the door as soon as that clock hit 5 or whatever. Mass exodus!! As far as I'm concerned if your doing it and not getting paid then you speak up or suffer the consequences. Most companies do understand people have lives outside of work. Perhaps she is in the wrong one. I agree with you on the HR point - if your in HR you should be at the very least getting your basics right re working hours etc. I sincerely hope the boss's comments were not genuine. Bad HR practice. Again it's only been 2 months so still time to move on. Plenty of jobs out there for talented people.

Moz
18-10-2012, 02:51 PM
Work life balance and millions of unpaid overtime? I can tell you in all places I have worked the ONLY people doing this were the managers who were paid a bomb for doing so. Everyone else was out the door as soon as that clock hit 5 or whatever. Mass exodus!! As far as I'm concerned if your doing it and not getting paid then you speak up or suffer the consequences. Most companies do understand people have lives outside of work.

I've seen people routinely working unpaid overtime in many organisations and the congestion on our city's roads and trains that continues after 6pm is testament to that. They're not all highly paid managers!

The "clock watching" mentality is more prevalent in certain types of workplace, particularly Blue Collar/manufacturing and other environments where overtime is paid and everyone is paid by the hour, instead of by the day.

It's not necessarily a bad thing, providing the workers are productive when they are there. What I can't stand are the people who start packing up and preparing to leave half an hour before knock off time!

There are however many large, white collar organisations where a significant proportion of the staff work on after their normal finishing time. Then there are the early morning meetings before the official starting time!

Common culprits are professional services firms (the "Big Four") and large law firms who take advantage of their fresh grads and junior professional staff.

Personally I think a bit of give and take is the best approach, where staff are given some flexibility when they need it and in return they finish late or start early when it is really needed, but not every day!

hey Blonde_Bunny, what's happening?

Blonde_Bunny
18-10-2012, 06:03 PM
The EBA states 7.6 hours and core hours 7am-7pm. It seems companies say they are flexible but the reality is different! So I had a chat and I get the impression he thinks leaving at 5 is early comments like "if you get your work done and leave at 5 fine but if you leave at 5 and work isnt getting done then I will get annoyed"
I don't take lunch breaks (15 mins maybe) go and get coffee or take cigeratte breaks.
Guess I need to see how it goes!

Thanks for all the advice!

Moz
19-10-2012, 06:37 AM
So I had a chat and I get the impression he thinks leaving at 5 is early

If he has this attitude, knowing that you are starting before 8am, then you have a problem. It's likely that his mindset is not going to change and he will be irritated every time you walk out the door at 5pm.


Guess I need to see how it goes!

I'd be looking for another job!

NicoleAnita
19-10-2012, 07:04 AM
I totally agree with Moz - 8am to 5pm? That's not even close to what you wanted, plus 9 hours per day? I would definitely be out of there and looking for something else even only contract until something permanent comes along, at the end of the day its only work and that is a long day especially if you are travelling a long way to work!