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kizl
19-03-2010, 09:23 PM
All,

Apologies if this thread has been posted in the wrong section. Mods can feel free to move it as necessary.

I am hoping that someone might be able to provide me with an independent view on a debate I am currently having with my HR manager as to whether I have ever been a manager at the company.

I was employed through an employment agency to the role of Accounts Payable Manager (as stated on my contract) approximately four years ago. The role had three direct reports across two countries. During my time in the position I signed a contract for a new employee, and I was also involved in a dismissal to the level of inviting the staff member into a meeting with myself and the then HR manager to advise that the staff member was being let go. I would note that I did not sign any termination papers - I assume this was done by the HR manager.

My key areas of responsibility varied however a section was specifically related to the management of accounts payable. I was also advised by my manager at the time that I could make changes to the department as I saw fit, however any major changes should be discussed prior to being rolled out.

Some time ago, I moved into a new role which did not involve a contract re-write but rather a letter stating that my title and salary had changed however everything else was as per my original contract. The person back filling me was recruited to the position of Accounts Payable Team Leader and the recruitment form states 'The revised role bears slightly less responsibility than the incumbent...'.

Sometime after my change of role, I requested a letter from the HR department stating that I was employed in a managerial position. I received a letter on company letterhead, signed by the HR exec stating the date I had joined the company, the two roles that I had had so far and that I had been in a managerial position for the duration of my time with the company. This staff member has recently gone on maternity leave.

Last week, I approached the HR manager to request that the letter be re-written with current date. The reason for the letter is as backup for entry onto an MBA program which states a minimum requirement of 5 years management experience for entry.

I was told by the HR manager that I was not and have never been in a managerial position. The letter was a mistake, the fact that I had signed an employment contract for a staff member didn't mean anything because it would have been someone above me that actually approved the position, and that I had never dismissed anyone - I had only sat in on a dismissal as a third person.

He advised that there was nothing (other than the mistaken letter) that I would ever have received that stated that I was in a managerial position, and positions are based off banding grades which are kept in the payroll system but that are never conveyed to staff. He stated that I cannot just assume that I am a manager because I have the word 'manager' in my title and that perhaps I should reassess my importance within the organisation.

So, my question is, in the opinion of the people reading this, have I ever been in a managerial position? What is the technical definition? I do not want to get into an argument with my HR department over this, however I would like to seek some third party opinions on the matter as it has left me feeling a little flat to say the least. I have gone from being ready to submit my application for entry onto an MBA program to finding that I am 3.5 years away from entry after a future promotion that takes me to what my HR department considers management level.

Your input on this would be welcome, and I am happy to elaborate on any part, although I will refrain from releasing any information on the organisation in question.

Regards,

Andrew

Moz
29-03-2010, 02:47 PM
The Oxford English Dictionary has several meanings, two of which are relevant;

1. Someone who manages something. (Now rare in a general sense).

2. A person who's office it is to manage an organisation, business establishment, or public institution, or part of one, a person with a primarily executive or supervisory function within an organisation, etc; a person controlling the activities of a person or team in sports, entertainment etc.

Each organisation, or indeed individual, is likely have a different view of the meaning. It is not uncommon for people to be called a 'manager' when they don't manage any other people at all.

To my mind it means that someone who has day to day responsibility for a function within an organisation and is not supervised on a daily basis.

However, that's not likely to help you.

I'd have to wonder why the HR Manager would not help you out by updating the letter, especially given that all you want it for is to undertake further education which can only benefit the business.

The comment your HR Manager made about you "reassessing your importance within the organisation" sounds like it was meant to belittle you and make you feel insignificant. Frankly if someone said that to me I would start looking for another job!

Will the people who are running the MBA course not accept your current letter? (Have you told them that the person who wrote it is on maternity leave?)

kizl
30-03-2010, 08:07 AM
Thank you Moz for your reply.

My understanding of the term is the same as yours.

I am not able to confirm the reasons why my HR Manager would refuse to provide me with the letter other than that he stated it was because I wasn't in a managerial position and had never been. If I were to conjecture I would say that because he had told me that it was based off the same grading as salary he may feel that if he were to provide a letter it may leave him open to my requesting a salary review based on my 'new' grading. That said, I made it quite clear I wasn't looking for any salary adjustment.

I also understand fully your feelings on the remark he made. Unfortunately however I am not in a position where I could hope to find a similar position or salary in any short period of time without uprooting my family and moving city.

I am hesitant to use my current letter as it does not cover the complete 5 year entry requirement and they would no doubt ask for the letter to be updated anyway - I would prefer to get this all squared away before contacting the university.

At this point, I believe my best course of action will be to speak with my direct manager - the company CFO - and see if he is able to do anything to assist. Having completed an MBA himself, a letter of recommendation from him may go a long way towards showing eligibility. Perhaps a letter from him, in conjunction with the previous letter from HR would be all I need.

Anyway, thank you again for your reply.

Moz
30-03-2010, 08:59 AM
The irony is that the university won't be interested in pay grades - they would be interested in only in your experience and responsibility.

I'm sure a letter from your CFO would be just as valid as a letter from your HR Manager.

The Y-man
30-03-2010, 11:10 AM
Kizl,

Have you got your PD? Most PD's describe how many direct reports you have.

Also, an org chart will help if it shows you as managing some staff.

Cheers,

The Y-man

kizl
30-03-2010, 06:16 PM
Moz - you're right. The uni doesn't care what my salary is. I would even go so far as to say they don't really care whether I have management experience. You can enter the MBA with either 5 years management experience or a degree. Given that, I would suggest that they are using the management experience as a benchmark so as not to take on people who are less determined or not as likely to complete the program, which would have a direct impact on their success in graduating their students and then there ability to entice 'would be student' by providing information on the percentage of students who graduate successfully.

Y-man - are you referring to professional development? As AP Manager I had a Key Areas of Responsibility (KAR) for which 40% was related to managing the department. I also had annual reviews, however I don't have anything in writing that specifically lays out how many direct reports I have had or do have. Additionally, the organization doesn't have an org chart that goes to any valuable detail below the senior management level - i.e. Financial Controller would be about as low as it would go even through a Financial Controller might have 2 direct reports which then in turn have 5 reports each.

It's quite infuriating as there is nothing that categorically states that I either have or have not been in a managerial position. I would like to ask the HR Manager whether he though of himself as being in a managerial role as he only has one direct report which is a payroll officer in comparison to the six I had as AP Manager. Of course I would not do this as it is only asking for trouble.

The Y-man
31-03-2010, 10:15 AM
Y-man - are you referring to professional development? .


Oops... sorry, I meant Position Description that you signed off on.

Cheers,

The Y-man

kizl
31-03-2010, 01:40 PM
yeah - there was a half hearted attempt to introduce position descriptions to all personnel a few years back. It never went anywhere and I think it was dropped. I have one somewhere but it is fairly airy fairy - 'day in the life of' kind of stuff. Nothing in it that would help unfortunately.