SEEK's ads - misleading?

[Moz]

I've noticed ads from Seek around Melbourne, particularly on trams, which say something about breeding jobs faster than rabbits and claiming to list a new job every 30 seconds.

I'm sure Julia Gillard would be thrilled about this if it were true, which of course it cannot be, because it's over 20,000 new jobs per week!

[CareyEaton]

Thanks for the feedback. You're confusing two things here.

The first is the difference between job advertisements and actual jobs. There are more advertisements than jobs in the economy.

The second is new job growth vs. people moving from one existing job to another in the economy.

There are clearly many more people moving between existing jobs than there are entering new jobs that previously did not exist.

In fact, as the unemployment rate goes up, there is job decline rather than growth. Of course many hundreds of thousands of people move from job to job every year, even as the unemployment rate rises.

Our claim of listing a new job opportunity every 30 seconds is absolutely true. In fact at the current ad volume, we're posting a new job opportunity approximately every 17 seconds, and at the peak of the economic cycle last year it was nearer the 10 seconds mark. In New Zealand where the population is a lot smaller, we're listing a new job more frequently than every two minutes.

What we're trying to do is communicate a positive message in these difficult economic times that opportunity is definitely still out there. Unfortunately there's not a great deal that SEEK can do about creating new jobs in the economy - although I am hiring people replacements at the moment if you know anyone!

[Moz]

Thanks for the feedback. You're confusing two things here.

The first is the difference between job advertisements and actual jobs.

Oh I see, so your ads aren't misleading - I'm just confused!

I can't remember the exact wording of the ad I saw right now, but it certainly gave me the impression that it meant a new job every 30 seconds. I'm quite sure it didn't say a "new job advert every 30 seconds". And if that is correct, then it is misleading, because as you point out, there is a difference between job advertisements and actual jobs.

I hope that doesn't mean that some of the advertisements are for jobs that don't exist.

While I can see your point about a positive message, I wonder how it makes the people feel who can't even get a response to their job applications at the moment. It can't be good for their self esteem if they think there's a new job every 30 seconds and they can't even get an interview!

I just looked at your ad numbers and you had just under 107,000 job ads. If they expire after 30 days then this supports the "new job ADVERT every 30 seconds".

Of the 107,000 job ads on Seek, do you have any idea how many of these are actual (real) unique jobs ? (just roughly)

And how many of those jobs are new, as opposed to the same job that has been advertised again and again?

Cheers,
Moz

[CareyEaton]

Hey Moz,

Next time you see one of those ads, check out the bottom right hand corner for the legal bits which explain the exact details. Like most companies, we do a lot of research before we put out a advertising campaign like this, and the research shows that the message is very positively received. I'm sure there will be some people who like it more than others of course - all ads have that - generally we're trying to do our best to provide a positive message of hope for all jobseekers including those that are finding it a little more difficult to get a job at the moment.

To answer your specific question about the relationship between the number of jobs in the economy and the number of advertisements on SEEK, its a very hard question to answer for three reasons: the number changes every 15 minutes, some jobs take longer to fill than others (and longer than the 30 days ad length on SEEK) and SEEK has no actual way of knowing in any event.

Many jobs are recruited and advertised in circumstances which require a lot of confidentiality.

There are a range of jobs advertised by the employer themself, and another range of jobs advertised by recruitment agencies representing that employer. For each job, there may be one or many recruitment or advertising agencies, and one or many advertisements.
The relationship between employers and agencies is a conversation that SEEK takes no part in. There is obviously no possible way SEEK or anyone can calculate at a given point in time how many recruitment agency relationships there are which might help you determine the number of actual jobs. There are probably much better sources of data from the ABS that would help you get to the number.

Secondly there are no rules that say you're only allowed only one ad for one job. It would be ill advised for any employer to adopt such a rule. I know for my own roles I usually advertise a couple of versions of differently worded advertisements in order to attract a broad range of candidates, and when I use a recruitment agency, they will no doubt advertise and promote the opportunity in many ways themselves. I know many people post ads in more than one category simply because jobs in the economy genuinely can attract candidates from a number of backgrounds.

As for people posting ads once the 30 days has expired, absolutely that happens - the proportion changes as the economy goes up and down, and about the only thing I can say with confidence is that its probably easier to fill a job in less than 30 days than it was a year ago. There are a few areas of candidate shortage where jobs are taking longer, including my own ads which have been reposted once or twice. I'm still struggling to find seven good people in a company ranked the number two place to work in Asia by Hewitt last year - which just goes to show that there are still great opportunities out there, the economy notwithstanding!

[Moz]

Hey Moz,
Next time you see one of those ads, check out the bottom right hand corner for the legal bits which explain the exact details.

Hi Carey,
You mean the "small print"? Typically used for disclaimers, conditions or qualifiers, that most people don't read, (a cynic would say not intended to be read), but the advertiser uses to make their ad technically legal. That doesn't mean it's not misleading.

It could be argued that an honest ad doesn't need small print :)

I didn't notice the small print on the Seek ad, probably because I was moving and the tram was moving! I just saw the words I was supposed to see.

Care to tell us what the small print says?
(I presume you already know or can find our pretty easily)

Re the number of real jobs on Seek, I wasn't expecting you to know for sure, but I thought you might have a guesstimate.

Cheers,
Moz

[CareyEaton]

LOL. Are you serious? I'm not sure there's anyone out there in the real world who has been 'misled' into thinking SEEK is claiming to be the government or the engine room of the jobs economy.

[Moz]

LOL. Are you serious? I'm not sure there's anyone out there in the real world who has been 'misled' into thinking SEEK is claiming to be the government or the engine room of the jobs economy.

ROFL, now you're just trying to divert the question. Perhaps you should go into politics :)

No one suggested that "SEEK is claiming to be the government or the engine room of the jobs economy".

The crux of my original post is that SEEK claims to have a new JOB every 30 seconds, which I don't think is anywhere near the truth. As you have pointed out yourself, there is a big difference between a JOB ADVERT and a JOB (i.e a single employment opportunity).

So, how about we avoid any further diversions and you tell us what the small print on your ad says :)

[CareyEaton]

Exactly. Every thirty seconds, someone can go on to our website and expect to see some new job opportunity that wasn't there thirty seconds ago.

For the record, the bit you missed as the tram flew past was: "Legal Bit: Based on Job Postings Jan 09 - Jun 09"

[Moz]

Exactly. Every thirty seconds, someone can go on to our website and expect to see some new job opportunity that wasn't there thirty seconds ago.

We seem to have come full circle!

I saw the tram ad again today, it says "A new job every 30 seconds".

Noting the words "new" and "job", let's recap.

You correctly pointed out that a "job" is different from an advert, or a "job posting" as your "legal bit" says.

You confirmed that you have no way of telling how many unique JOBS are on Seek at any one time.

The "legal bit" on your ads seeks to justify the ad by saying it is based on "job postings", yet, as you have so painstakingly pointed out, numbers of "job postings" or adverts have no correlation to "new jobs" or even old jobs for that matter.

Everyone knows that there are duplicated job ads on Seek, because the same job is often advertised in different categories and/or different locations, or they can simply be reposted as a new ad so that they rank higher in the search results. Also, we know that multiple recruitment agencies are often advertising the same job at the same time.

Considering the facts above I cannot see how anyone could not come to the conclusion that your ad is misleading.

[CareyEaton]

The ads also suggest we are breeding jobs like rabbits. We are absolutely misleading the public on this because we definitely do not have an actual laboratory where we are working on job genetics. We are absolutely misleading the public in suggesting that jobs can rain . There is absolutely no connection between climatic events and jobs, so yes, we are also misleading the public in that regard. I concede that.

We could probably split hairs over the difference between reality and advertising for a very long time.

I think this is probably the point in this discussion where we're going to agree to disagree.

[Pete]

ooh - this is just too good to ignore.

I haven't seen the actual ad, so am not in any position to make a complaint to the various recruitment industry or advertising standards bodies, however the statement "a new job every 30 seconds" would seem to be pretty clear: every 30 seconds a "new" "job" is placed on Seek.

In defending the advert Carey undermines Seek's own position by stating they have no real way of checking or verifying if there really has been a new job added or one of a number of possible duplicates - re-listing of an old job, rewording of an existing (concurrent) advert, duplicate (agency) advertising of an already listed position etc. So Seek's definition of "new job" is clearly "a Job advert".

(side issue - Carey states a practice of multiple different worded versions of Seek's own positions being posted on Seek, and then uses the numbers of adverts posted to claim that there are "new jobs every 30 seconds" - anybody else sense a minor issue here?)

So, we have two major issues -
1 - What does the phrase "A new job every 30 seconds" mean"? and
2 - How many jobs are actually advertised?

Re issue 1 - I support Moz. To me, a "new job" clearly means a unique employment opportunitythat a job seeker can apply for. Using the power of this new fangled interweb thingy, I suggest anyone reading these posts to vote in the thread to indicate what they interpret the words at first reading to mean - new "job" or just "new advert"? (I'd also suggest this whole issue would die now, if Seek changed the wording to "a new job ad every 30 seconds" as that would be more accurate).

Re issue 2 - Even assuming "new job" has a common interpretation akin to that ascribed by Moz and I, it's something we will never know for sure as Carey indicates that Seek just don't know. Which would seem to fly in the face of their legal disclaimer that it's based on postings, they obviously know how many postings they have. It would then appear that they (Seek) just don't check ads for validity/uniqueness. So the disclaimer would seem to actuially mean "this claim is based on based on some raw cumulative data that we hold but can't verify but can use to support an interpretation that "new job" just means different advert". (back to the suggestion above - "new job ad every 30 seconds" would fix that too!)

As a side issue - I have identified agencies that have not been engaged by my organisation advertising jobs on our behalf that we have not placed with them, jobs that we have already placed on seek. I have also found agencies advertising on Seek jobs that do not exist (as the only Hospital in a region it's not hard to spot ad's for Medical and Nursing roles that don't exist!). I have taken this up with the agency concerned, but not with Seek - Question to Carey - how would Seek view this practice?

So, votes please - Does "a new job every 30 seconds" mean -

a) - a unique position to apply for (or something similar that amounts to a new and real opportunity not otherwise advertised on Seek)
or
b) - an advert for a position that may already be advertised on Seek ?

Cheers

Pete

PS - Carey and the folk at Seek - the wording "new job ad every 30 seconds" is currently copyright to me!! haha.

[CareyEaton]

You're feeling misled by an ad you haven't actually seen?

Misleading adverts - by anyone's definition - require that people both see the ad and having done so, are actually misled. By false information in an ad.

When you actually go and look at one of our ads, you'll find that they quite clearly spell out that we're talking about job postings.

In "small print" that's 7 foot long.

[Pete]

Hi Carey (and the rest of the HR world).

First - thanks for the reply, and for the commitment to front up to this discussion as a representative of Seek.

Second - semantics, I have never said that I was misled, or even that the advert is misleading, and freely admitted I have not seen it. This is a discussion forum, a place for HR professional to share opinions and ideas, I'm simply sharing my thoughts on an issue raised by Moz. I do feel that the words used in the ad as described by Moz, (including being a banner slogan on a moving tram), do not at first reading convey the same meaning that you have ascribed to them in this discussion to date.

Third - the disclaimer says that the statement "a new job every 30 seconds" is based on job postings from Jan 09 - Jun 09. To me, that clearly qualifies the claim by stating that over a set period of time you have the data to support it. It does not define "new job" as a "job posting", that would require quite a different disclaimer.

Fourth - I'm still quite keen to hear what other people think - votes please (Mr/Ms Administrator - is there a simple online voting tool we can use as part of the HRBuzz site?)

Fifth - any thoughts about the question I put to you regarding the behaviour of agencies advertising on Seek positions that they have not been engaged to recruit to, in cases simply pirating "official" adverts that are already on Seek to try and capture candidates, or even advertising roles that simply do not exist? (is this a potential sub-thread - "ethics of recruitment agencies"??)

Cheers

Pete

[admin]

(Mr/Ms Administrator - is there a simple online voting tool we can use as part of the HRBuzz site?)


A poll has been added at the top of the thread/page.

[CareyEaton]

Hi Pete

Always up for a good discussion!

We could get into lots of semantics here. I don't mean to be patronising at all but I'm going to spell out advertising slogan 101.

Like many advertising slogans out there, 'a new job every 30 seconds' is a play on words. I can think of at least 8 interpretations.

- every 30 seconds, there's a new job ad on SEEK
- every 30 seconds, SEEK has created a new job in the economy
- every 30 seconds, the prospect of a new job for you is on SEEK
- every 30 seconds, you can change your career on SEEK
- every 30 seconds, there's some new different task for you to perform on SEEK
- every 30 seconds, something occurs on SEEK that might lead you to a new job for yourself
- every 30 seconds, a new prospect of a job for you appears on SEEK
- if you're inclined to go on a crazed job hopping expedition every 30 seconds, SEEK's probably not a bad place to start

I'm not sure why people need to vote on whether these are different meanings - of course they are.

We've put in a disclaimer in case someone - for some very strange reason - picks meaning number two which we're definitely not saying.

Technically speaking - according to the criteria Moz is setting out - all ads are misleading. Try literal interpretations of these and you'll easily find ambiguities that are nonsensical or false:

"On Sale Now" (in a 11pm ad)
"Have it your way" - well no actually, at Burger King, there are some limits.
"The Ultimate Driving Machine".
"Refreshes the parts other beers cannot reach"
"We're Factor 50"
"Myer is My Store"

On your fifth point, I'll post a separate reply if you post a thread because its a completely different subject.

[Moz]

To answer your specific question about the relationship between the number of jobs in the economy and the number of advertisements on SEEK, its a very hard question to answer for three reasons: the number changes every 15 minutes, some jobs take longer to fill than others (and longer than the 30 days ad length on SEEK) and SEEK has no actual way of knowing in any event.

I should point out that this discussion has never been about how many jobs there are in the economy - it's about how many jobs there are on Seek.


For each job, there may be one or many recruitment or advertising agencies, and one or many advertisements.


There is obviously no possible way SEEK or anyone can calculate at a given point in time how many recruitment agency relationships there are which might help you determine the number of actual jobs.

I feel that these statements by Carey make the "Legal Bit" irrelevant, regardless of whether it is seven foot long. Clearly the main part of the ad talks about "Jobs" and the "Legal Bit" talks about "postings", which is another word for "adverts". As Carey has made very clear in previous posts, there is no correlation between the two.

[CareyEaton]

I'm a bit confused now.

When I say "new jobs in the economy" I'm referring to vacancies.

You seem to be interpreting this as actual jobs which is nonsensical - why would anyone advertise a job that someone already has?

That would be illegal anyway under the Constructive Dismissal banner.

[CareyEaton]

With the vote, can we have a third option which is "Something else"?

[Pete]

I'll start a new thread when I have a bit more time - and will summarise a few experiences to put it in context.

I note you say there are at least 8 different ways your slogan "a new job every 30 seconds" can be interpreted. Doesn't this confirm it as misleading? (Concise Oxford "Misleading: causing to err or go astray; imprecise, confusing.")

A vote would confirm the most common interpretation put on the words you have used. If the majority interpretation is not the one that you have stated, it would inferr the statement to at best be confusing or imprecise and at worst misleading (intent remains to be debated!).

Cheers

Pete

[CareyEaton]

I don't think so. A play on words is not misleading according to your dictionary. We're not intending to cause anyone to go astray and I'm not sure there's any evidence anywhere that people have done so.

In any event, I believe Moz's original post was about misleading advertising, as by the ACCC, which has a somewhat different definition to the dictionary version.

[Kerry Larkan]

People interpret based on their filters (age, education, experience, culture, values etc) and so the poll becomes meaningless in my opinion. Anyone with common sense (sadly common sense is not that common) knows Seek and the recruitment sector play on words - spin their position. To believe otherwise is some what naïve.

[interestedobserver]

Hi

I have been reading this post with interest, and while I don't necessary agree with the definitions that CareyEaton has provided (I tend to think the ad is misleading), I am happy to accept his explanation and move on.

However, to add my two cents worth into the debate, I thought I would use some real examples from seek.

Have a look at the following link.

SEEK Job Search - Find jobs using multiple job search options (http://www.seek.com.au/jobsearch/?DateRange=1&Keywords=Job%20Capacity%20Advisor&searchfrom=quickupper&searchtype=again)

here, we can see three job ads which I think are identical (the clincher is the recruitment company reference number listed in the add - all the same number). Even if we accept CareyEaton's explanation that employers and agencies should be able to advertise one role in multiple formats, you could then potentially excuse the first one, but the second and third - they look like the same job advertisement to me.

In the past, I have also seen circumstances where recruitment agencies might periodically, say every week or so, relist every role they have, but then not delete the older roles that they had initially posted, thus leading to a duplicate, or they change a phrase like "inner city location" to "city fringe location".

I acknowledge that most of these practices probably wouldn't be in breach of the Trades Practices Act on misleading and deceptive conduct, but it is still conduct that I don't particularly like, and is very frustrating for job seekers...not that my opinion really means anything.